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baronessekatI've been asked a couple times about my choice to give my Associate a Red Belt (the traditional belt of a Squire) instead of a Yellow Belt (the traditional belt of a Protege).
In September of 1995, on the day Morguhn and Meirwen were invested as Territorial Prince and Princess of AEthelmearc for the second time, I swore fealty to him. Not as a Squire to Knight or Cadet to Don, but as a Courtier to the Royal Peer. Sometime that winter he gave me my fealty chain.
Over the years he struggled to find a title for me. I was of equal rank as the Squires and Cadets but I was neither. Eventually he started calling me his Esquire.
In 2006 His Grace was elevated to the Pelican. At that Pennsic he asked me if I wanted a yellow belt and officially be his Protege. We had a long heartfelt conversation then. I expressed my very strong opinions on Yellow Belts. (If you want to know, ask me privately.) And said that after 10+ years of being his Esquire, I was very content in the role. There was nothing he could teach me as a Pelican that he could not as a Duke. I did ask for a Red Belt at the time due to some internal household politics. He agreed and a couple months later he presented me with a red belt with his name and my name written on the inside of it.
When I was elevated in 2008 he offered me to take my belt back to pass on to my first student (and since there are no sumptuary laws in AEthelmearc it's not a big deal here, just untraditional). At that time I had told him that he should pass it on to his next Protege/Student and make it the "ancestral belt" for his lineage. Unfortunately fate conspired that I would be the only one for that role.
When J and I started talking about a Pelican/Associate relationship between us, I told her about my opinion on Yellow Belts and how I would not give one to any student of mine. We discussed options and I presented her with one very important and emotional one. I offered to get my belt back from the Ladies and have her wear it, provided that the Duchesses approved.
It was agreed to by all sides.
When I got the belt back,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
dicea embellished the belt tip with both Boss' badge and mine to outwardly show the lineage. And when she passes a name in the SCA her name will be added to the inside as well.
So J now wears not only my former belt but she also wears my old chain as well. As is only right for the first student.
I have no plans to take any more Associates in the near or foreseeable future. If I do, I will talk to them as well about belt options. I may or may not present a red belt to them. That is for the future to hold.
But that is the reason for me, a Pelican, to have my Associate wear a red belt.
In September of 1995, on the day Morguhn and Meirwen were invested as Territorial Prince and Princess of AEthelmearc for the second time, I swore fealty to him. Not as a Squire to Knight or Cadet to Don, but as a Courtier to the Royal Peer. Sometime that winter he gave me my fealty chain.
Over the years he struggled to find a title for me. I was of equal rank as the Squires and Cadets but I was neither. Eventually he started calling me his Esquire.
In 2006 His Grace was elevated to the Pelican. At that Pennsic he asked me if I wanted a yellow belt and officially be his Protege. We had a long heartfelt conversation then. I expressed my very strong opinions on Yellow Belts. (If you want to know, ask me privately.) And said that after 10+ years of being his Esquire, I was very content in the role. There was nothing he could teach me as a Pelican that he could not as a Duke. I did ask for a Red Belt at the time due to some internal household politics. He agreed and a couple months later he presented me with a red belt with his name and my name written on the inside of it.
When I was elevated in 2008 he offered me to take my belt back to pass on to my first student (and since there are no sumptuary laws in AEthelmearc it's not a big deal here, just untraditional). At that time I had told him that he should pass it on to his next Protege/Student and make it the "ancestral belt" for his lineage. Unfortunately fate conspired that I would be the only one for that role.
When J and I started talking about a Pelican/Associate relationship between us, I told her about my opinion on Yellow Belts and how I would not give one to any student of mine. We discussed options and I presented her with one very important and emotional one. I offered to get my belt back from the Ladies and have her wear it, provided that the Duchesses approved.
It was agreed to by all sides.
When I got the belt back,
dicea embellished the belt tip with both Boss' badge and mine to outwardly show the lineage. And when she passes a name in the SCA her name will be added to the inside as well.So J now wears not only my former belt but she also wears my old chain as well. As is only right for the first student.
I have no plans to take any more Associates in the near or foreseeable future. If I do, I will talk to them as well about belt options. I may or may not present a red belt to them. That is for the future to hold.
But that is the reason for me, a Pelican, to have my Associate wear a red belt.
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(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-19 08:01 pm (UTC)For what it's worth, I was proteged to Mistess Etaoin O'Fearghail. My Pelican passed away recently, and I never wore a yellow belt. We never needed one.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-19 08:19 pm (UTC)(And I'd love to know your reasons on the non-yellow belt.)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-19 08:20 pm (UTC)I also enjoy a place that has no sumptuary laws, and I rarely wear my medallion or a coronet.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-19 10:33 pm (UTC)It's so cool to have an opportunity to turn things that feel like insults into common ground with a simple explanation.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 01:43 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 05:44 pm (UTC)Was the squire chain and spurs already a tradition back then?
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 06:34 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-19 09:04 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-19 10:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-19 10:34 pm (UTC)Thank you for sharing it.
Wow! So, ANYBODY can give ANYBODY a red belt for ANY reason?!?!
Date: 2010-01-20 12:29 am (UTC)I was laboring under the (mis)assumption that only Knights gave their vassals red belts, Pelicans, per tradition, bestowed “a belt of gold” (usually yellow) and the Laurel provides the apprentice with the traditional belt of green.
But by the above logic, Pelicans, Laurels... and, now, I suppose, households, local groups, fighting units... hey, even non-fighting units could all take red belts! Lovers could exchange tokens of red belts! Valentines day is coming up... why not? If anybody asks, all we have to do is point to Ekat and say, “In our kingdom, ANYBODY can give ANYBODY a red belt for ANY reason!!”
How NIFTY!!! Oh, the IDEAS I can come up with for THIS one!!! THANK YOU!!
Re: Wow! So, ANYBODY can give ANYBODY a red belt for ANY reason?!?!
Date: 2010-01-20 03:20 am (UTC)Is this sarcasm?
Re: Wow! So, ANYBODY can give ANYBODY a red belt for ANY reason?!?!
Date: 2010-01-20 07:22 pm (UTC)Knights who had out red belts like they're candy (or, worse, as love-tokens for pretty girls) sully the red belt more than her Excellency's actions ever would or could. One thing that cannot be argued: this exchange had meaning for both Pelican and Protegee, regardless of whether the symbol used was the traditional symbol used in the SCA.
Having family in Clan Yama Kaminari has given me an interesting, non-western view on the reverence with which a red belt ought to be treated. As they are trying to be as authentic as possible in their re-creation of Japanese culture, a squire earns his or her belt through hard work on the fighting field, diligence, study, and character. Per tradition, those belts are red, and are treated as valued. Once earned, that belt is not to touch the ground.
By stark contrast, I have seen several households where the knight is practically recruiting for squires, and pounces on every newbie who shows up to practice. This cheapens the red belt far more than anything her Excellency ever did possibly could.
When Duke Morguhn gave Her Excellency, a woman who had never been a qualified fighter, a squires belt, he had already broken with tradition. That was His Grace's choice, and we can not ask him why he chose to do it, but we have Her Excellency's account. Allow us the grace to take the high road and assume that Her Excellency speaks the truth, and the original transaction, like this one, had meaning. Allow us to assume that someday, when this is passed on, it will have meaning as well, regardless of the color.
Re: Wow! So, ANYBODY can give ANYBODY a red belt for ANY reason?!?!
Date: 2010-01-20 08:11 pm (UTC)This last bit here:
"Allow us the grace to take the high road and assume that Her Excellency speaks the truth, and the original transaction, like this one, had meaning."
I'd just like to get it clear because when I read that it sounds like you are implying that this story may be a lie. Do you feel the need to take a high road to assume that someone else is speaking the truth?
Re: Wow! So, ANYBODY can give ANYBODY a red belt for ANY reason?!?!
Date: 2010-01-21 12:17 am (UTC)There are two sides to every story, and, simply, we were not there, and we will never be able to know exactly what was going through His Grace's head at the time: Scientific fact. However, we do have Ekat's story. In this case, I have no reason to doubt her words, or the genuine emotion behind the experience, regardless.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 01:29 am (UTC)Knights=Pelicans=Laurels in peerage and status. I can see how in such an instance any of the above peers could, in theory, gift their squire/protege/apprentice with any of the colors of belt traditionally reserved to squires/proteges/apprentices. It is only SCA tradition which reserves those colors after all. There is nothing in Corpora regarding regalia of squires, proteges, or apprentices; probably because no one thought it would become any sort of issue.
However, tradition is strongly held in the SCA. It is part of what sets us aside from other 'clubs' and groups. We use tradition as an enhancement of our experience of the Current Middle Ages, and use our customs in much the same manner as would have been in period.
In period, a Mayor wore a chain. A Knight wore a chain. But those chains were different based on the differences in their functions in the society where they lived. Just so is why the traditions of different belt colors have evolved in the SCA. While I respect that you have 'very strong opinions' on Yellow Belts, I hope you also realize that by breaking with tradition you may have doomed your young Associate's career as a potential Pelican due to the strong hold tradition has on the SCA, and on the Pelicans you will want to have see her deeds and consider elevating her to the same station they and you enjoy.
May you and she enjoy your relationship and it prove beneficial to both of you.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 02:58 am (UTC)Attitudes like this are why I quit the SCA at a very young age and never regretted it. 'dooming' someone for the colour of a bloody belt is so petty, ridiculous and elitist, and should not be tolerated by people in any organization. What you are effectively saying is that NOT EVEN ONE Knight or Mayor in period did not wear a chain differing from another Knight or Mayor. Having omnipotent knowledge of history like that must be ever so satisfying for you that you can lord it over a very touching post and moment like this and KNOW FOR A FACT that EVERY single Knight, and EVERY single Mayor wore the EXACT same hue.
Congratulations for coming across as a pompous ass and reaffirming my decision to leave you behind.
*************************************
Ekat, it is very period of you to go your own way and create tradition in extenuating circumstances. Studying history, this is how traditions are created. I applaud you for making this a very meaningful symbol for so very many people. It is a very touching story.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 03:55 am (UTC)You seem to have missed my qualifier of "in the society where they lived". I did not at any point say or imply homogeneity of medieval society and customs. In the SCA we have attempted to create a cross-cultural cross-time homogeneous society, wherefore we have traditions and customs to try to facilitate that condition. I do agree with you that the pomposity of relegating someone's status to 'in-consequential' over many of the things used to judge people in the SCA is reprehensible, but, unlike you I have chosen to remain a member for those people and things who DO embody "The Dream".
If you read my entire comment, at no point did I criticize or condemn Ekat. I merely hoped she considered all the potential consequences of her action before she did it. I also did not say I approved of those potential consequences. Please reread my first paragraph with a more open mind.
I am glad I was able to assure you that you had made the correct decision in your life-path when you "left" the SCA "behind".
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 04:57 pm (UTC)This kind of self righteous drama is why the SCA does not have more good people who share the true interest of the SCA and not the "Look at me I am a drama queen" aspect.
I am not going to sully Ekats blog further with any more replies. She does not deserve it. I suggest you think about the same thing before you spout more of your pompous attempt at CYA (and badly done at that. Seriously, troll elsewhere on the internet to learn how to do it better).
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 03:17 am (UTC)If this were true, then no squire from Clan Oldcastle would have been knighted, including our current Crown Prince; their belts were blue. Nor would the squires of House Bedford who have become knights; their belts were black and white.
The choice of livery that a peer uses to mark their associates is ultimately theirs. If this 'strong tradition' is used to penalize the work of a good and hard working person, then it is the tradition that is the problem, not either the person or the peer who gave them the livery. I've been around the SCA longer than a lot of the peers in it, and I remember the days when Pelicans didn't give yellow belts--most of those relationships, where any formality existed, was done on a handshake.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 04:55 am (UTC)Clan Oldcastle and House Bedford established their own traditions, and kudos to them for doing it! Yes, the choice of livery does belong to the peer, and should. I also agree that tradition should not be used to penalize people, but I have seen it happen, more times than I can count, since I joined the SCA (when the only "belts" were white for knights and that was only a 'tradition' and not yet codified).
My purpose in commenting was partly to stop people and make them think. Hopefully they will, and Ekat's Associate won't have to deal with prejudice because she's wearing the 'wrong' color belt. I am also aware there are squires (and probably some knights) in Aethelmearc, Ekat's home kingdom, who are furious now they know His Grace's lineage belt was passed by a Pelican to her protege-Associate, as if they think this is some sort of slur on the belt, or squirehood, in which case they should read my first paragraph about peerages (and their trainees) being equal.
May we both live to see less hide-bound times.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 05:48 am (UTC)Are there those who will "judge?" Probably. But then, being strong in your beliefs of "right" is one of the keystones of what being a Peer is all about. Those moments are opportunities for education and growth on both sides of the viewpoint.
As a Knight and Duke of Aethelmearc, I applaud Her Excellency's decision, as it was made with much thought and good reason. If there are those in our Kingdom, or outside, who are furious.. well.. that will be the fuel for their own fires to burn with, and I pity them for it. :)
Very well chosen, on both keeping the tradition and your associate, Your Excellency Ekaterina.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 09:18 am (UTC)(Courteous salute)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 02:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 06:31 pm (UTC)I think I understand Ekat's reasons behind using the red belt, but I agree with Adrian that she is opening herslf and her protege up to potential conflict. As long as they both recognize and accept that fact, then I don't have a problem with it myself, but it does seem like needlessly inviting trouble.
I would be interested in learning Ekat's issues with yellow belts. I was not aware of any stigma attached to them. FWIW, I've seen proteges wear blue belts, or plain brown belts with their liege's badge on them, so yellow is not the only option.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-21 02:44 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-21 02:48 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-21 02:59 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-21 03:12 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 04:12 am (UTC)Tradition != stagnation.
In my twenty+ years in the SCA, I have been witness to many traditions evolving into being, out of being, and into becoming something Other than what they Had Been. Nothing is "doomed" except that which will not evolve. As the saying goes, "Fortune Favours the Brave", and among the bravest are those who break the unchanging and unstinting bonds of stagnating "tradition" to seek new things. Challenging? Probably. Doomed? Hardly. "Tradition" once said the world was flat; someone took that as a challenge, and look where we are today. "Tradition" once said wearing polyester sateen garb was the utmost in SCA fashion; someone took that as a challenge, and look what changes in authenticity have wrought. Someone says belt colours are bound unchangingly by tradition? Only until someone braves the challenge.
It won't be you, my Lady, and that's okay; it will be those who are brave enough to take on the challenge. And I, for one, am proud of them both.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 05:15 am (UTC)I, myself, am a challenge to tradition. I have been "out" in the SCA since I joined 38 years ago. As a consequence, I did not receive ANY awards, of any kind, until Duke Morgan (may he rest in peace) and Duchess Rowan gave my Lady and me our AOAs during their first reign - a MAJOR break with tradition. I still believe in challenging traditions, and regret that did not come through in my post. I thought the first paragraph would have established that.
I, myself, have no problem with Ekat's action. I simply hope she thought of all the potential consequences when she did it, and that by pointing them out people will be aware of them and call the relevant parties on them if it becomes a problem in the future.
I would revise your opening statement if I may. Tradition - the way they used to do it.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 06:26 pm (UTC)BTW, many hugs to you.
Homophobia
Date: 2010-01-21 01:39 am (UTC)Homophobia is still very alive and well in the SCA (as I get to see painfully demonstrated every Pennsic) but it was much, much more so back then. Remember, Clan Bluefeather had been around only 5 or 6 years by this point, and both Ladies were told DIRECTLY by "an assortment of Kings and Peers" that they would never get awards because, "That would mean people might think the SCA was 'funny.'"
One of the many things Their Graces did that showed "the Content of their Character" was to have the inner grit to stand in the face of prejudiced hatred and tell the homophobic naysayers to take a hike. It's one of the many reasons they have my respect.
Re: Homophobia
Date: 2010-01-21 02:57 am (UTC)I have to say that I was not aware of that sort of treatment happening to my gay friends. I recall one gentleman in Ontario who was in the hospital dying of AIDS in the mid-80's, very near the start of the epidemic, and the Midrealm Crown went to his hospital bed to bestow the order of the Laurel on him. I witnessed many other members of the gay community receiving awards up to and including peerages throughout my early days - Master Geoffrey d'Ayr in the East was already a Pelican when I joined the SCA in 1977. I have no idea why Sine & Adren were overlooked for so long, but I find it hard to believe that ALL of the monarchs before Morguhn held such views.
Also, FWIW, Sine and Adren WERE given AoAs in 1985, long before AEthelmearc became a Principality in 1989, and received Kingdom orders from the East as well as Principality orders from AEthelmearc back in the early 1990s. You'll find the information on the Order of Precedence. When Adren mentioned Morguhn's second reign, she meant as King of the East, not AEthelmearc.
And now I think we've hijacked Ekat's LJ long enough on this topic, so if you want to continue discussing it, please send me a message privately.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 05:19 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 02:17 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 03:47 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-20 01:35 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-21 02:53 am (UTC)We are the dreamers of dreams. We are the makers of tradition.
Congratulations. To you both.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-21 03:22 am (UTC)I'm a strong believer in the "specific student/teacher/whatever" relantionship needing to be tailored to fit those involved. Specifically, the two in the relantionship. It works for both of you, which is really all that matters to me. :)
I believe when you have a relantionship that has touched you, you carry it on, in how it best works for you. From my outside viewpoint, it seems that you have carried on His Graces intent, which is wonderful.
For my .02 worth. I highly doubt that anyone here (pelican-wise) will hold it against your associate. There may be a few, but hardly the majority of the order. I'm not trying to speak outside the order, but most of us tend to care more about actions then what someone is or isn't wearing. :)
It may make it a bit more difficult to figure out that she is your associate to some, but it's not a major thing.
I don't doubt that there will be some who don't approve, not knowing or understanding the reasons. IMO, that's ok too, since we are all different people. There's enough of us, I believe who do support your right to give your associate whatever belt (or not) that you deem right for you. Not that you need our support. :)
I believe it is good to "tweak" our traditions. Just as I believe it is appropriate for knights to take squires who aren't or aren't only rattan fighters. Sometimes we get tunnel vision and only see one path, when in fact there are many.
I have mixed emotions myself on the whole protege and belt stuff. I ended up giving mine a yellow belt with blue edges. Following in spirit the head of my household (well, used to be), even though this is not a fighting path. I expect they will get questions (they have) and I warned them that some people won't understand. The important part is that they understand and it works for us.
Having worn the belt yourself, I expect you are well aware of some people's attitudes and already were prepared that not all would understand. Sometimes the well worn path isn't the best one for us or those who walk with us (or follow our lead).
I'm sorry I missed it (too many distractions). Congrats to you both :)